Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Jeff Strong (married father of five, grandfather, former mission president, retired senior executive consumer goods) join us to talk about his new book. Jeff introduces his book with the story of his son Cale leaving the MTC and then leaving the Church—and Jeff’s desire to better understand. Jeff’s book (with a forward from Steve Young) focuses on: Conducting the largest LDS focused study on disaffiliation (20,000 respondents + interviews) About 40% of those that were active in 2000 have left the church 25 years later The “four patterns” that emerge from the data—super insightful Importance of culture—needs to nourish and create belonging—and how we can do better “It isn’t about lower standards; it’s about more love” Framing of the tension—four areas Powerful story of reconciliation with his son Cale Jeff’s book is so needed in our community—bringing the data forward and then framing it a way that gives us tools and insights to do better. I encourage everyone to read and share this book—and co

My friend Duane Jennings (gay, same-sex marriage, mid-60’s, RM from South Africa, Affirmation Leader for 15+ years, author “Stumbling Blocks and Stepping-Stones”) joins us to share his story including: · Journey to understand and accept his sexuality · Serving a mission · Anger and asking God about his sexuality “Told it is OK” · Got involved in Affirmation “Help people spiritually heal” · Been with his husband for 20+ years. · Friends most of the “September Six”—Lavina Fiending Anderson (died in Oct 2023) edited his book · “Stumbling Blocks and Stepping-Stones” Vol 1 and Vol 2 maybe the most comprehensive analysis of all things LDS/LGBTQ through 2016 · How to get a copy of Duane’s book Thank you Duane for being on the podcast and especially for all your work over a few decades to bring more understanding and support for our LGBTQ friends. You’ve made a huge difference for good. Honored to have you on the podcast. You are a good man.

My friend Eli McCann (lawyer, University of Utah Law School adjunct professor, Equality Utah and The Road Home board member, married to husband Skylar, father) joins us to talk about his new book published called “We’ve Thankful for the Moisture, A Gay Guy's Guide to Mormon Faith, Family and Fruit Preservation” Thank you Eli for being on the podcast and sharing about your new book—which is a reflective book—along with some humor—on our unique Mormon culture. I encourage everyone to listen to Eli’s podcast and check out his book. Thank you to our friends at The Salt Lake Tribune and Signature Books for making this book possible. Thank you Eli for all your good work in our community to build bridges and help others. Your work brings a smile to my face. You are a beautiful family. Links: Eli’s Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Were-Thankful-Moisture-Mormon-Preservation/dp/B0GLSLKYRM

My friend Josh Otani (Master’s Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from Utah State University and a Bachelor’s in Psychology with a minor in Family Life from Brigham Young University; active LDS) joins us to talk about: * How to build a healthier tools and perspectives about the sexual part of ourselves * Untangling shame from our sexual part—not something that needs to be “covered up” * It’s beautiful, inherent, and life giving * Thoughts are part of our experience—be curious—not your identity * Agency is after our thoughts—act within our value system * Working through betrayal trauma (ourselves and our role to help others) * Developing “safety and security” in a marriage comes at a price—the price of being vulnerable * Discussion of how to create a culture of vulnerability * Being a peacemaker—fresh perspective This is a super powerful episode to talk sexual shame and how to develop better tools and perspectives to do better. I wish I had listened to a podcast like this a long time ago—before

My friends Andy and Stephanie (LDS parents of 4; living in Vancouver, Washington) join us to share their story. Andy starts with the talk he gave in Church using the line “other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation” from the Family Proclamation to talk about how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. It is a powerful talk—one of the best I’ve heard on addressing this important topic—using church leader quotes, Christ teachings, and church resources. Andy received only positive feedback on the talk. Stephanie and Andy then have a discussion around the process to write the talk and things they are doing to be allies in their circle of influence (including starting a local gathering group) to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. If you are looking to talk about this subject (in church, family, etc) please listen to and share Andy’s talk. It will give you tools, insights, and church quotes to talk about this subject. And if you are LGBTQ, I believe And

**Note: In this episode, Emily talks about being lesbian. In a future episode, Emily talks about being blind** My friend Emily Groves (student of Boise State University, doubling in bio and computer science, active LDS) joins us to share her story. * Journey to understand and accept being lesbian * Break from religion * Coming back to religion—super powerful experience with God confirm she is lesbian * Coming out to her Patriarch prior to her Patriarchal blessing (positive experience) * Coming out to others—possible family reactions * How her feelings about the church vacillate—but trying hard to make it work—loves being in the Church * Work to find/accept her path and grace for others choosing a different path * Probably will marry a woman someday * Open to serving a mission, open to getting endowed—and thoughts around these two decisions Thank you Emily for your courage to share your story. You are awesome—and wise beyond your years. Honored to have you on the podcast. You story and in

My friend Gabby Rich (Brazil RM, BYU-Idaho graduate, day care teacher, from Anacortes, Washington) joins us to bravely share her story: * Grew up “goody 2 shoes” Mormon * “Shame cannot survive being spoken” * Kissed her last mission companion * Chose not to take the sacrament day of her mission homecoming * Believed she was straight—dated guys * Strong interest in a guy who “would be the answer to all my problems” * Broke off relationship—downward spiral of anxiety * Finally accepted being attracted to girls * Started to come out (some good and some not so good responses) * "Was still valuing others’ perceptions of me—versus living authentically" * UVU institute class for queer members—super helpful in her journey * Parents became great allies * Started dating girls—everything clicked * Wants to “find a girl who would share my same desire to maintain a relationship with Heavenly Father and works to becoming more Christlike” * Helpful advice received from others * Hopes for the future Thank y

My friend Magnum Davis (High School Senior/Utah County, out to family/friends for over 3 years) joins us to bravely share his story: * Painful Jr. High Experience—always being asked if he was gay * Mom’s support during these years * Starting to come out in early High School years—“felt freeing” * Coming out to entire family—“each time I told someone, I grew” * Great family support over the years * Believing can’t be gay and Mormon—initially felt like he had to choose one * Dating boys—keeping communication open with parents * Difficult Bishop experiences—but giving grace * Breaking point—“I had to break for God to build me into something better” * Seeing and working through deep rooted shame—helpful therapists * Love conquers everything * Love he feels from his Heavenly Parents and his Savior * “Being gay is a spiritual gift” Thank you Magnum—one of our youngest guests—for being on the podcast to share your story. Respect for your courage to share your story out of a desire to help other feel hope. Your

My friend Soren Neilsen (age 21, Sacramento California RM, from Michigan, University of Utah student) joins us to share his story: * Realizing he was different—not attracted to girls * Working through internalized homophobia and shame * Hurtful things said about gay people while growing up * Coming out to Bishop (good experience) * Gay LDS friend—friend throughout his mission—offered love, acceptance, and support * Decision to serve a mission * Coming out to both mission presidents (generally good) * Coming out to companions and generally the whole mission (generally good) * “God wants me to use my sexuality to help others come unto Christ” (I thought I could add that there is unity in our differences) * Deep testimony of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior—and His atonement (D&C6:36) * Personal revelation * Feeling his best path forward is to marry a man and build a life/family together with Christ as the foundation Thank you Soren for being on the podcast to share your story. You

My friends Kade Smith (age 38, lives in San Diego, married to husband Chris for 9 years) and Terri Smith (LDS married mother of 4 sons) join us to share their story. I’ve been friends with the Smith family as we lived together in the same Sandy neighborhood from about 1993-1998. Sheila and I love the Smith family. Kade shares: * Coming out at Age 18 * Moving in San Francisco and being groomed into an abuse relationship. Was vulnerable and need validation * Becoming HIV positive—told his Mom * Going “all in” with the gay community—needed belonging * Abuse, drug and alcohol addiction—suicidal, called Mom from his balcony—drive back to Salt Lake City * Long road to sobriety—being “loved back to life” * Role of Heavenly Father and Kade’s Savior Jesus Christ to help him * Importance of the Word of Wisdom * Belonging withing the sober community * Helping others. Moving forward Terri shares: * Challenges of parenting an adult child with drug/alcohol challenges * Always loving and bel

My friend Laurie Reese (married mother of five, one grandchild, active LDS) joins us to share her story based on a recent talk she gave in her Ward: * Story of her son Landon and her daughter Hallee coming out as gay * Hallee’s marriage ended. Mother of one. Now engaged to her girlfriend * Laurie’s support for her gay children * Loneliness as some people pull away and don’t know what to say * Melissa Inouye’s book “Sacred Struggle” and sitting in the back seat on the road to Piha * Teaching of Jesus to love those on the margins “Easier to put others in a group and then label them in a certain way and set them aside and dismiss their pain and needs” * We don’t need to use Satan’s tactics (take away agency) to accomplish God’s plan * Questions I ask myself as I better try to follow Jesus * Landon’s difficult seminary experience—how we can do better * Church leader quotes about diversity and doing better * Story of selling a home and heart dropped as a gay couple came to look at the home—and now

My friend Candice Bithell (married mother of three, active LDS) joins us to share her story: Candice’s backstory Bones (her transgender son) coming out at age 13/14 Parable of the Lost Coin as her spiritual lens Powerful insights into the Lost Coin Parable to support Bones Difficult experiences on Bones journey—anger, self-harm, etc… Love as the foundation of her approach to support Bones “My love is bigger than your gender” Attending Pride Events—including bringing glowsticks—powerful experience of love and acceptance Close and loving family—beautiful family love story This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done for providing insights (both doctrinally and from a parent’s perspective) into loving and supporting a transgender child. If you are looking to better understand and support the transgender people in your life, please listen and share this podcast. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help us all better love and support the transgender people in our lives. You hav

My friend Douglas Williams (President of the Real OCD Club and the Un Alone Club at BYU; dual-major at BYU, RM, MTC Teacher) joins us to share his journey with OCD and scrupulosity: Understanding, managing, and accepting intrusive thoughts—not a sign of worthiness Thoughts don’t have anything to do with our character Undiagnosed scrupulosity entering mission field (repeated confessions to Stake President) Difficult start to mission, medication, things got better (still misdiagnosed) Coming home from mission, going off medication, and crashing Finally got a correct diagnosis—path to healing Importance of Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy Ego-syntonic thoughts (line up with values) and ego-dystonic thoughts (don’t line up with values)—super powerful distinction Invitation to join the Real OCD Club at BYU (focused on OCD) Invitation to join Un-Alone Club at BYU (focused on solving porn use) If you are working to understand and navigate OCD in yourself or help others, Douglas’ podcast

My friend Gracee Purcell (BYU Psychology Grad, President of RaYnbow Collective, Activist, Engaged to be Married) joins us to share her story at BYU: Why she choose BYU Advice for other queer people considering Church-owned schools Roommates (mostly positive) Interactions with BYU administration Interactions with BYU professors Work of “RaYnbow Collective” to support queer BYU students Insights on the concept of “Safe Places” Thank you, Gracee, for being on the podcast and all your bridge building work to make this world a better place. You are doing so much good in our community and have a great life ahead of you. Congrats on your recent engagement. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: RaYnbow Collective Instagram: @raynbow.collective

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text chat 988 ** My friend Bruce Butcher (late 50s, married father of three, active LDS) joins us in a powerful episode to share the following: Loving and accepting people in his life who are no longer in the Church “We don’t punish a man for his beliefs” Losing his wonderful son Taylor to suicide in June 2024 Taylor’s prayer “bless the sick and sad, help us to be the best versions of ourselves” Painful doctrine the Church used to teach about suicide—led to no hope Love of a mother is the most powerful force on earth Love of our Heavenly Mother is the most powerful force in heaven—she isn’t going to cut off any of Her children Excluding people is not Christ’s doctrine David Archuleta—“I’m still a fan” Being a cafeteria Mormon My apology to my LGBTQ friends I deeply loved listening to and learning from Bruce. If you are looking for more hope in your life, be more like Jesus, and love/accept people walking dif

My friend Heather Sorensen (married mother of 4; grandmother of 14, early morning seminary teacher), joins us to share her story of losing her daughter Hannah in a traffic accident at age 15 in 2013. Heather talks about the initial and continued grief of her death and how she is navigating both holding her grief and her testimony of being with Hannah again. Heather talks about a dream she had before Hannah was born and that feeling returning during Hannah’s death. She also talks about losing her son Richard at birth. Heather talks about not being active in the Church for twenty years and her journey to return to the church and the importance of creating her identity rooted in Jesus Christ and invites us to do the same. Heather talks about her son Zachary’s cancer diagnosis during home MTC, fear she would lose another child, and Zachary’s recovery and serving a mission. Heather talks about why she decided to write a book about Hannah—called Dandelion Blessings—which is Hannah’s nickname. If you

My friend Mark White (professor, LMFT, aspiring ally, mid-60s, active LDS) joins us to talk about his new children’s book—which is focused on an 8-year-old’s decision about being baptized in the context of having two gay dads who attend church with her—and what we can do to be better allies/advocates to queer Latter-day Saints and their families. Mark shares the following: * Journey to be an aspiring ally/advocate * Clinical experience * His publishing company (Firefly Inkworks) and new book, Indigo’s Baptism * George Gerbner’s cultivation theory * The power of stories * Representation matters * To be seen * Future books * Need for all kinds of queer stories, including narratives for a book on LDS Trans and gender nonconforming persons Mark invites a discussion about how we can be a better ally/advocate (friend, parent, local leader, etc.), including asking our queer friends to let us know what they need and indicate whether we truly are an ally/advocate. The children of queer LDS parents are es

My friend Eliza Riggs (age 22, RM/Orem Utah, UVU Student) joins us to share her story including: Great Parents, Queer Friendly Home Came out first to her Heavenly Parents—positive experience Felt lots of pressure to fit in the Church as a Bishop’s daughter, wasn’t working, difficult chapter Joined girl’s high school wrestling team—“saved my life” Youth conference and surprising thought to serve a mission Mom buying her rainbow sheets before coming out to her Being called to Orem, Utah (initial disappointment—but then powerful revelation) Great experience coming out to her Mission President Coming out to her parents—super positive Her queer identity is celebrated in heaven Thank you, Eliza, for your courage to share your story which will help so many. You are awesome. Honored to have you on the podcast. Encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: Eliza’s Instagram: @elizariggs31

I was invited to be on my friend Tate Arnold’s show (Over___Soul) to share my story. I’ve posted that show as Episode 864 on our platform so you could listen here. Thank you, Tate, for letting me be on your show. You are a good man doing great work! Please check out and follow Tate on Instagram @Over___Soul

In one of our most important episodes, David joins us to talk about his new book “Devout—Losing My Faith to Find Myself”. In this episode, David talks about his journey with God to find his path forward as a queer Mormon considering suicide—a path that led David to separate himself from the Church—taking God with him—and live authentically. David gives excellent advice to younger queer people and parents to better support queer kids. I conclude with some of my thoughts on continuing to love and support those that leave our Church (not making them the hero on day for staying in the church and the villain the next day for leaving) and thanking David for his many years of service in the Church and the countless lives he has blessed. Thank you, David, for being on our podcast and your courage to continue to share your story. You are one of my heroes—you continue to help so many find hope in their lives. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and consider what we can do to better suppo