Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

**Warning: This podcast talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Jacob Guy (RM, age 23, Senior at Weber State, shared his story on Episode 613) joins us to talk about his new book “The Scorpion Unit” a story that Jacob hopes will help people considering suicide. In the podcast, Jacob talks about why he wrote the book, who he hopes will read it, and what how he hopes it will help people. Jacob shares his plans for future books. Jacob also talks about his road as a gay Latter-day Saint, what he is learning, how he is feeling about his future, and how people help him (please listen to Episode 613 for more of his story). I honored to have Jacob back on the podcast to connect listeners with his new book. I encourage everyone to read/share Jacob’s book and consider what we can do to better support our LGBTQ friends and family members. You are a good man, Jacob. So talented. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Jacob’s Book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CWX

This episode is guest-hosted by my friend, Tonya Miller. Tonya was on episode 501 and wrote the third chapter in my most recent book, called “Ministering To Those With Church-Generated Pain or Trauma.” Tonya interviews Stacie Proctor, who joins us to talk about her life as a mom, wife, business executive, and active member of the Church, who also lives with bipolar disorder. Stacie was diagnosed in her twenties, when she experienced an episode of psychosis that resulted in her being hospitalized. Stacie describes these events, and others associated with it, that set the stage for a fundamental shift in her worldview and testimony. She gives us a glimpse into what she learned about acceptance of limitations, and ways that this can lead to heightened perspectives and deep peace that would have been unimaginable had she not gone through the frightening experiences surrounding her diagnosis. She talks about a period of time during which she knew she needed to take some space from full activity in the Church, an

My friend Dale Schafer (California Convert, Adelaide Australia ’79-81 RM, Twice Excommunicated, Lives with his husband in Hudson Valley, NY) joins us to share his story his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. Dale starts with his childhood of feeling like an outcast/not belonging because of his sexual attraction to men. Dale talks about his conversation story followed by his desire to serve a mission (good experience). Dale talks about trying to be honest/live with integrity as he did his best to move forward (came out to mom, mission president, BYU counseling center, broke off an engagement, and his bishop). Dale talks about being excommunicated but then rebaptized while at Utah State and then moving to Boston where he stepped away from the Church—but always felt it was his spiritual home. Dale talks about these years including becoming HIV+ and how his testimony kept him alive. Dale talks about finding his husband (been together for over twenty years) and also attending his local LDS branch (positiv

My friend Scott Gover (late 40’s, lives north of London, left church in his 20’s, returned 18 years later, active for last 11 years) joins us to share his story. Scott starts with his growing up years having a deep testimony of the Church and also realizing his was gay. After many unanswered prayers to change his sexual orientation, Scott concluded “I was so evil, that I was beyond God’s love and the atonement” and was going to end up somewhere between “outer darkness and the telestial kingdom.” It’s heartbreaking to hear Scott’s conclusions—which are logical conclusions for a closeted gay Latter-day Saint. Scott talks about eventually leaving the Church for 18 years—even with a testimony of the Church all those years. Scott talks talking to Elder Murdock and Cuche and deeply spiritual experience including Elder Murdock’s testimony that led Scott back into the Church. Scott talks about a disciplinary council (positive experience) that returned him to full fellowship, a Stake that put him to work

This episode is guest-hosted by my friend Steven Kapp Perry from the “In Good Faith” podcast. He interviews John Gustav-Wrathall (a dear friend and mentor) who appeared in an early episode—Episode 49—which we’ll link to below. John shares some of his earliest spiritual experiences, which gave him a solid faith in God, and then describes his journey of listening to and following the clear promptings of the Spirit, even when that inspiration surprised him and was not what he was expecting. That included a life-saving impression to step away from the church for a time, and then, surprisingly, a call to return to it. We’ll also hear how John’s patience in certain painful situations at church later led to growth and change in the very people who had caused that distress. Thanks, John, for your courage to continue to share your story. I learn so much from you. Links: Episode 49: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-49-john-gustav-wrathall-same-sex-marriage-affirmation-executive-director Link to

My friend Jacob Troxel (who recorded this podcast three weeks after his successful mission in Canada Edmonton) joins us to bravely share his experiences as a gay Latter-day Saint and one of the first openly gay missionaries in the Church (which is noted on his Facebook profile). Jacob (who grew up in Camarillo) talks about realizing he might be different around age 12 and then came out to his Bishop and parents at age 16. Jacob talks about how he probably wouldn’t have stayed in the Church without the loving first response from his Bishop. Jacob talks about a powerful spiritual experience where his belief in God shifted from “having a testimony that He doesn’t love someone like me—to God is perfectly loving and loves me.” That is the anchor knowledge that has given Jacob peace as a gay Latter-day Saint and his burning desire to serve a mission so others could know that important gospel truth. Jacob takes us on his mission and shares the both the difficult experiences and the positive ones—ones whe

My friend Lindsey Sais joins us to share her powerful story. Lindsey (early 40s, married for 5 years to her wife Connie, lives in Raleigh NC) joins us to bravely share her story of being divorced at age 23, coming out as gay that same year, working through addiction, being an ex-felon, and suicidal ideation. Lindsey talks about how addiction is not a moral failure—but rather a human reality from taking drugs/alcohol—which often starts to escape pain. Lindsey shares the process she took (along with God’s help) to become sober on Feb 13, 2013—it is a moving story that gives hope to others. Lindsey talks about how Christ’s love/atonement is not earned—it is just there for all of us—and how she accesses that love in her darkest days to feel hope and healing. Lindsey shared many lessons, perspectives, and insights for those in dark places to find a way forward—and the positive role of her parents on this long road. Lindsey talks about finding her soulmate in her wife Connie and how that relationship

My friends Josh and Jen Rollins (married for 26 years, parents of 5, live in Riverton Utah, active LDS) share their story of their middle child Aiden coming out as gay, then their oldest children Jace coming out as gay and later transgender, and then their second-oldest Chelsea coming out as bisexual. Josh (who was serving as Bishop during much of this time) and Jen share how their family went from fitting the perfect Latter-day Saint mold to where they are today—a beautiful family united in their love for each other and creating space for the lived experiences of each family member. Jen and Josh are honest that their journey has been difficult as their LGBTQ kids didn’t find it possible to find a place in the Church—and how they needed to reconstruct their hopes/dreams. Jen and Josh talk about their constant reliance of prayer and direction from Heavenly Parents. Jen and Josh talk about how having LGBTQ kids isn’t a “trial”—because their kids are great human beings doing much good in the world—t

My friend Lily Prisbrey—who recently returned from both a proselyting mission (Philippines) and a service mission (Utah). She joins us to give her farewell talk. In this talk, Lily bravely talks about: Her journey with scrupulosity and faith-related guilt. Finding a loving, accepting, and NOT “ever-disappointed” God. Finding God in the Filipino people. Finding God through a Mission President who listened to doubts without judging and supported Lily’s decision to end her proselyting mission early. Finding God through failure. Inviting others to serve missions who don’t fit the mold. Lily concludes her talk with her powerful testimony of a loving God with 1 John 4: “God is love” and these words: “I am not a black and white, fit the mold, perfect kind of person. But I served as a missionary—and I hope that through what I’ve shared today—you all can see that if I can be a missionary, you can too”. We conclude with a discussion about her talk. Lily brings powerful insights into how to help everyone

My friend Zak Hazlett (Masters Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from BYU) joins us from his home in Moab, Utah to talk about his life mission to bring more kindness, love, understanding into our community. Zak (who grew up running rivers in Southern Utah) talks about merging this love of the outdoors and his desire to help others into a career as a therapist and relationship coach—which is captured in his fast-growing Instagram Account called @the_outdoor_therapist. In the podcast, Zak talks about how to better love and accept ourselves, love others, learn to forgive ourselves/others, find hope/healing and be a better people. Zak also talks about working as a student therapist in the BYU Comprehensive Clinic—where he had many visits with queer BYU students. He talks about what he learned, how to better listen, how we don’t always have the answer, how his heart changed, and how he loves this group of people. I was deeply moved listening to Zak—his great heart—his work—and his ability to communic

Our friend Ben Schilaty (who recently turned 40 and is co-host with Charlie Bird on the Questions from the Closet podcast) joins us to talk about his decision to date men, his commitment to our Church and the gospel of Jesus Christ, his decision to leave BYU (on good terms) and start his career as a therapist (Ben has a Masters in this field) focusing of helping LGBTQ folks and their families in Utah. Ben also talks about the new Gatherings groups using the Book of Mormon/Come Follow Me to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Ben concluded with his latest insights from the Book of Mormon. As usual, I was deeply moved listening to Ben’s latest thoughts on his personal life, his career, what we can do to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and his scriptural insights to create Zion. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this podcast. Thank you Ben for all your efforts to create more understanding, unity and hope. Honored to have you on the podcast and count you as a friend! Links: Ben’s Nov 2023 Blog:

My British friends Sam and Jen Norton (married parents of four, living near London England) join us to talk about their work to help younger Latter-day Saints feel welcome, needed and that they belong—allowing them to bring their individuality to help build Zion and access the Atonement of Jesus Christ to bring healing to themselves and others. Sam and Jen take the gospel of Jesus Christ and —in a unique way—turn that into action with the London FSY events over the past two years—which included 500+ youth from over 95 nationalities. With the help of their dedicated team of forward-thinking youth leaders, they talk about these events that created a safe and welcoming place for the youth to feel welcome and needed so they could come unto Christ in their way and access His healing. Sam and Jen then talk about Sam’s new book (with Jen writing the foreword and conclusion) where Sam talks about how to put gospel principles into action so that more of our younger members feel welcome and that their contribut

My friend Kurt Francom (founder and executive director of Leading Saints) joins us to talk about his new book called “Is God Disappointed In Me? Removing Shame From A Gospel of Grace”. In the podcast, Kurt (who has done 100s and 100s of interviews with local Latter-day Saint leaders) talks about why he wrote the book, the need for this type of book, and what he hopes it helps accomplish. I agree with Kurt that shame has no place in the Gospel and grateful for Kurt putting his years of learning into a book to help our Latter-day Saint community. I encourage everyone to read and share Kurt’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Kurt and all your needed work to help create Zion. Links: Kurt’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Leading Saints: https://leadingsaints.org/

My friend Camille McConnell (married LDS mother of 5 who was on episode 292) joins us to talk about her new book called “Let the Angels Carry You: Coping & Connecting When Loved Ones Pass On." In the podcast, Camille talks about how to connect with our loved ones who have died and have them be part of our lives. She also talks about how to find hope, peace, and purpose following the tragic and sudden loss of a child or someone close to us. Camille also talks about what we can do to better support those dealing with grief—and how simple platitudes like “he is in a better place” are not helpful. I learned so much from Camille’s insights. If you are dealing with grief or want better insights/tools to help others, please check out this podcast and buy Camille’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Camille (and I felt Wesley with us) and all your great/needed work in our community. Links: Camille’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Angels-Carry-You-Connecting/dp/B0CQK4PYCS Camille’s ea

*** Trigger Warning: This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** In this solo episode, I talk about the focus of the podcast going forward, the Allegory of the Olive Tree/Vineyard (Jacob 5) and how it applies to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, and a personal update. Thank you for all your support of our podcast. Love, Richard Links: Richard Ostler e-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com Bio: papaostler.com Facebook Support Group for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Spencer King (Sapporo Japan RM): https://www.spencerking.link/

My friend Jana Spangler (Certified Integral Profession Coach at Symmetry Solutions, alumnus of The Living School, Latter-day Saint) joins us to talk about stages of faith using Brian McLaren’s 4-stage model of simplicity, complexity, perplexity, and harmony. This is a powerful model to understand the various roads Latter-day Saints are walking. Jana—a sought-after speaker, presenter, retreat leader and podcast guest on this subject—has many years of experience in this space from both her personal journey, professional work, and academic experience to give Latter-day Saints tools and vocabulary to understand a faith transition within themselves and provide better support to others. Jana is someone I consider an expert in this field for Latter-day Saints. Her work helped me in my own journey during my faith transition as I desired to stay a committed Latter-day Saint and needed more tools, principals, and perspective. Thank you, Jana, for your wonderful/needed work in our community to bring us togethe

**Trigger Warning: This episode talks about electroshock therapy and suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Adam joins us to share his story of coming out in the early 90’s in a church where we generally believed that “something had gone wrong” with someone having same-sex attraction that could be identified and then ‘fixed” through conversation therapy and in the case of Adam (and others) electroshock therapy—and increased spiritual practices (prayer, fasting, church attendance). Adam shares his heart wrenching story of wanting to be a “good Mormon boy” and doing anything asked of him over a 5-year period to be straight and root out the “deviant nature” of his same-sex attraction. Adam takes us back to the 70s/80s/90s to what was being written in BYU publications and said by church leaders about homosexuals. Adam talks about how we "can’t heal without addressing the past”. Adam talks about his plans for suicide, delaying those plans for one day, and then leaving the

My friend Ben and Rebecca Lesue (parents of nine, recently moved from SW Missouri to Monument Valley Utah, non-binary/queer child) join us to share their story. They start with their journey to understand LGBTQ Latter-day Saints following Rebecca’s brother coming out as gay. They then share the story of their own child coming out as queer/non-binary then stepping away from the Church. Rebecca talks about learning “her job is not to cause them to turn out a certain way” but to “love and nurture”. Ben and Rebecca then talk about the 5th Sunday lesson they gave in their Ward about faith transitions. They talk about models of faith including simplicity, complexity, and harmony. Ben talks about how he learned his own “faith crisis” is normal, healthy, and positive. He talks about the work of Jared Halverson (LDS Institute Teacher) to normalize faith transitions. Ben and Rebecca talk about how fear and doubt are not opposites of faith—but part of developing a stronger and more sustainable faith. B

My friend Clare Dalton (who shared her story as a gay Latter-day Saint on episode 583) joins us to announce the exciting news of a companion curriculum from Gather and Lift+Love to help LGBTQ+ individuals and families see themselves in the 2024 Come, Follow Me study of the Book of Mormon. Clare talks about the accessibility of this program (which includes a downloadable monthly .pdf) designed to add additional content to Come, Follow Me that helps teachers, local leaders, LGBTQ+ families, allies, and people holding or wanting to start LGBTQ+ support groups, bring to life principles and insights from the Book of Mormon to support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints. Clare shares her goal: “I want everyone to see themselves in the scriptures” and the importance of representation. If you are looking for Christ-centered/Church-supportive content to better support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints as part of our study of the Book of Mormon in 2024, please check out this podcast and download/share these .pdf guides. Thank yo

My friends Liz Giles (from Yakima Washington, RM, BYU Grad) and Ryan Giles (from South Jordan Utah, RM, BYU Grad) join us to share their story. Liz and Ryan start with becoming friends at BYU, accidentally falling in love, and then* figuring out their sexualities. Ryan states, “You don’t fall in love with a girl unless you are wired for girls.” Liz talks about her decision to serve a mission and coming to terms with her sexuality during that time. Both Ryan and Liz served faithful and honorable missions. After Liz returned from her mission, Ryan and Liz share how they navigated their close friendship while at BYU, decide to begin dating a year later, and get married in 2021. They talk about the options they explored as queer Latter-day Saints and the personal revelation they received to walk a fourth option—being in a same-sex marriage and continuing to participate in Church (as much as they are allowed to). They talk about the love and support they are receiving from many church members. They also talk