Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friends Jacob Rugh, Michael Wood and Grace Soelberg (all from the Department of Sociology at BYU) join us to talk about their new peer-reviewed and scholarly published research to better understanding the experience of Black Latter-day Saints. The research article is called “Making Space Behind the Veil: Black Agency within a Predominantly White Religion” in the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion (see show notes to access the article). In the podcast Jacob, Michael and Grace give powerful insights and examples to better understand the experience of Black Latter-day Saints—including the concept of W.E.B. Du Bois’s concept of ‘twoness.’ They also talk about why they embarked on this groundbreaking research effort and their hopes on how the findings can help improve the experience and better value the contributions of Black Latter-day Saints. I was so moved listening to these three authors. The principles and insights help me new tools and perspectives to help better create Zion, see and addr

My friend Melissa Dalton-Bradford (married mother of four raised over 30 years across nine countries; author of books, articles and poetry; public speaker; MA in Comparative Literature from BYU; co-founder of two non-profits—TSOSrefugees and Mormon Women for Ethical Government), joins us during her trip from her home in Germany to Utah to talk about loss, grief, and living onward. That’s actually the title of one of her books: On Loss and Living Onward: Collected Voices for the Grieving and Those Who Would Mourn With Them. She spoke freely about her family’s experience with traumatic loss, and took us through some vital points from her writing. The book takes readers through the death of her son Parker in a drowning accident in 2007 at age 18 and her family’s efforts at finding hope, healing, and peace. The book in organized in five sections: Life at Death; Love at Death; Living After Death; Learning From Death; and Life, Love and Light Over Death. Melissa is open, raw, honest, vulnerable, and courag

My friends Don and Jenny Hong (married parents of 4) and their gay son Isaac (age 30, RM, has boyfriend) join us to share their family story. Isaac starts with his story of coming out to his parents about 8 years ago following his successful mission and doing everything he knew to be straight. Jenny and Don then share their journey to love and support their gay son and his long-term boyfriend Brock. It’s been a journey for the Hong family with some ups and downs—but a beautiful family love story with a foundation in love, curiosity, listening and honest communication. Don (a former Bishop) then shares a talk he gave (that has since gone viral) called "The Gift of Doubt: How doubt and a gay son brought me closer to God." It is a powerful talk based on Brother Jared Halverson’s stages of faith. Don’s talk hits on a key need in our Church community to normalize doubt and learn to develop new models and perspectives to make our way forward as Latter-day Saints. If you are a parent of a queer c

My friend Patrick Risk (who was most recently on Episode 297) joins us to talk about his new book “One Day at a Time: Daily Hope for Those Navigating Their Own Path of Healing.” Patrick bravely shares his own life story (including being a survival of sexual abuse, having an eating disorder, and being gay) to bring practical advice and insights for those looking to find peace, healing, and hope. Patrick talks about going from “what if to what now” and going from “victim to victor.” If you are dealing with the complexities of a difficult mortal world and want an authentic voice to give you principles to find peace and hope, please listen to this podcast and read Patricks’ powerful book. Patrick will help you feel God’s love, understand that you are not alone, and that you are strong enough to overcome any obstacles that you face. Thank you, Patrick, for being on the podcast and for your remarkable life ministry to bless others. You are a great man. Links: Patrick’s book on Amazon: https://www.a

My friend Jon Rogers (Washington DC RM, recently divorced, attending church, has boyfriend) joins us to share his story. Jon talks about his foundational principles of faith, trust, and patience to guide his life. Jon talks about knowing he was gay but never accepting or believing his he was gay until a deeply spiritual experience about two years ago that helped to better understand how our Heavenly Father feels about him. That led Jon to come out to his wife and then his parents and his two teenage daughters. Jon talks about why his marriage ultimately ended and how he is making his way forward “doing the best I can.” Jon talks about why he continues to attend church (often with his boyfriend Nate), the importance of personal revelation, and grace. I’m grateful for Jon’s courage to share his story. Hearing his story helps us better understand and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and also gives LGBTQ Latter-day Saints principles and perspectives as they write their story. Thank you, Jon, for b

My friend Samuel Benson (2023 BYU grad, Boston RM, staff writer for the Deseret News), join us to talk more about his powerful BYU commencement speech call “Our Place in Zion”. Samuel (Sociology and Spanish major, pursuing a career in journalism, and author of an upcoming book about Latter-day Saint immigration) talks about creating Zion. A Zion where all belong. A Zion which is “one of diversity and of peace, one of everlasting joy”. A “Zion defines itself in terms of inclusion, a mission to allow all to find belonging.” Samuel expands on his thoughtful speech with more insights, leader quotes, principles, and examples from the life of Christ to help everyone feel they belong. A Zion with differences and diversity—but unified. I was deeply moved by Samuel’s insights. Samuel talks these big idea concepts and brings them into practical application to “lift where we stand.” Samuel concludes with his testimony and how he navigates the complicated issues to always be “led back” to the core of his

My friend Jeff Andersen (married father of three, active LDS) joins us to share his story to become an LGBTQ+ Ally and start his Instagram account @latter.day.stonecatchers . Jeff starts with his own journey in the Church through “reconstruction and expansion”—which has occurred twice through Jeff's journey, including once within the last few years—and why he remains a committed Latter-day Saint. Jeff then talks about a spiritual impression to learn about queer Latter-day Saints which led to a transforming experience a few years ago in his Ward. I was deeply moved hearing this experience. Jeff concludes with his reading of Isaiah 1:17, which he felt specifically and strongly as a spiritual call direct from his Heavenly Parents to be an ally to queer Latter-day Saints and start his Instagram account, podcast, and YouTube channel. I was deeply moved listening to Jeff’s story. Jeff has a gift of understanding our doctrine and practically applying it to help people walking a more complicated road. I

My friend Kaleb Cox joins us to share his journey to better understand and support our LGBTQ friends. Kaleb talks about how his Dad’s speech in June 2016 following the killing of 49 patrons at the Pulse club in Orlando (a gay nightclub) moved him to reconsider his assumptions about queer people (https://www.ksl.com/article/40209267/lt-gov-cox-speaks-at-vigil-for-orlando-my-heart-has-changed). Kaleb talks about his missing and serving in Tahiti (good experience) but then Covid hit in March 2020, and he had to leave and was eventually reassigned to Farmington, New Mexico. Kaleb talks about the culture of his mission that was difficult at times and didn’t reflect Jesus. Kaleb talks about how he navigated this, served, helped people along the way, and successfully completed his mission. I was deeply moved hearing more about Kaleb’s courage in the face of serious headwinds (Covid, difficult culture, etc) to serve because of his desire to help lift the hands of others. Kaleb then talks about his post-m

My friend Cole Conner joins us to share his remarkable story. Cole talks about being bullied and realizing his same-sex-attraction. Cole talks about coming out to his parents/bishop and finding support—but also feeling some anger towards the Church. That led to Cole leaving the Church, returning to the Church, again leaving the Church and returning again. Cole talks about his life outside the Church being involved in the LGBTQ community—and why he couldn’t find sustained happiness. Cole talks about the constant love he feels from his Heavenly Father and Savior and their foundational role to give him hope and perspective. Cole also talks about working through two periods of being suicidal. Cole talks about finding sustained peace and joy in the Church and why his spiritual identity is straight. He talks about his hopes for the future including marrying a woman and having a family. Each story we share on this platform is unique and valid. I was deeply moved listening to Cole’s story and his jour

My friend Dr. Julie Fraumeni-McBride (married LDS mother of six children) joins us from her home in Temecula, CA to talk about helping women solve porn use. Julie (who got her PhD in Education and Disabilities Studies and now is a Researcher and Education Program designer at the Steadfast Institute) helps us understand the latest research to end porn use. Julie talks about why the addiction/recovery model is not supported by the latest research—while the ACT model is. Julie also talks about framing porn as a reliance and not an addiction. She talks about helping people deconstruct the shame around porn and how that is a key step to ending porn use. Julie also talks about how parents need to be the “trusted experts” for their children regarding topics around human sexuality—included why this is important, how to do this, and how normalizing these types of conversations is important and doesn’t lead to more curiosity. I was deeply moved by Julie’s insights as a researcher and program designe

My friend Josh Sabey (married father of two, noted documentary filmmaker) joins us to talk about his new book called “Ali, The Iraqi”. It is a story (both factual and fictional) of a 16 year old Iraqi exchange student named Ali moving to the United States and staying with Josh and his family. When Ali runs away from the program, it takes some Mormons, a Non-denominational Christian, and an Atheist to help Ali survive and reconnect with his Muslim faith. On the podcast, Josh shares stories from the book that show the sustaining power of love and faith—even across different religions. It’s a powerful story about reducing divineness, finding common ground, and loving/supporting each other. I encourage everyone to check out Josh’s book. Links: Josh's book is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1948218844 As a bonus, here is an essay Josh recently had published in Wayfare Magazine: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/god-and-onions Personal website is: https://www.joshuasabey.com/

My friend Michele Portlock (married mother of 4) joins us to share her story. Michele talks about parenting neurodivergent children (e.g. ADHD, Autism) which led her to go back to college to get a Masters Degree in special education and start an LLC called Navigating the Spectrum—which also includes a podcast. Michele brings her experience as a parent, academic training, and professional work to bring more tools and understanding to “better show up” for neurodivergent children. I learned so much listening to Michele. Michele also talks about her gay daughter Brielle who recently graduated college. She talks about working through autism, anxiety, and dark times around her sexual orientation—to now a thriving daughter who is doing much good in the world with her college work and her plans for a PhD. Michele talks about the correlation between neurodivergent children and not being straight—but she clearly points out that being neurodivergent is a diagnosis while not being straight is who people

My friend Debra Coe (active LDS mother of 5) and longtime LGBTQ Ally joins us to share the latest research on Gen Z (the loneliest generation), their mental health and what we can do to help them feel needed and a clear feeling of belonging. This is the focus of her latest Op-Ed in the Deseret News in March 2023 (see show notes for link). Debra talks what we can do to be a “trusted adult” and what we can do to help people feel like they matter—in both our congregations and ward families. Debra shares some family story with her gay son Lincoln (who came out and married his husband Robert in 2017). She talks about how their family and congregation navigated this (part of their beautiful family love story). If you are looking for research, insights, and practical examples about creating belonging in your family and/or congregation, I encourage you to listen to this episode and share it with others. Thank you, Debra, for being on the podcast and your needed work in our community to save lives and bring

My friends Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown, noted Latter-day Saint historians, join us to talk about their powerful new book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre of an Arkansas wagon train in 1857. Through their extensive research, they answer questions about why it happened, who was responsible, Bigham Young’s understanding/involvement, descendants of victims stories/interactions, and reconciliation. I was deeply moved—sometimes to tears—learning about this tragic part of Latter-day Saint history. Understanding and owning our history is key to reconciliation and ensuring the same cycle of fear and extremism isn’t repeated. I am so grateful for Rick and Barbara and their work to write this history, connect with the descendants of the victims, and help heal hearts. This book is both a thoughtful academic book and a powerful story of pain, heartache, tragedy, and reconciliation. I encourage everyone to read this book and listen to this podcast. Thank you Rick and Barbara for being on the podcast a

My friends Aaron and Julie Bujnowski (married parents of two; living North of Dallas, Texas), join us to talk about their love of the Temple and its ability to connect us with Jesus and personal revelation, which led to writing a book called “Discovering Your Temple Insights.” The book is different than most Latter-day Saint books about the Temple. As one reader called it, “Come follow me for the Temple.” In the podcast, Aaron and Julie (who both grew up in Nashville, Tennessee) share what they have learned during years of temple attendance and provide practical steps to make the Temple more real in our lives in terms of both the blessings of keeping covenants but also the ability to receive insights and personal revelation inside and outside the Lord’s house. I love the Temple and am grateful for Aaron and Julie bringing forth this excellent book—really a working guide—to make the Temple more real in our lives. Please check out their podcast and book---I believe it will bless your life. Thank you, Aaro

My friend Ben Ferney (Australia Sydney RM, Former Weber State LDS Institute President, and Weber State Student Body President) joins us to share his story. Ben talks about the hope and happiness that is ahead for LGBTQ people. He talks about trying to date women and dodging questions about his apparent lack of interest in dating. After a brake up, Ben concluded she was the last girl he would date. That led Ben to come out to his family and friends (very positive support). Ben then talks about his decision to date men and doing that with God and his family’s involvement with intention and with boundaries. Ben talks about finding Calvin Smith (Episode 432, https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-432-calvin-smith-rm-byu-grad-gay-active-lds-plans-to-marry-a-man) last year and falling in love and their decision to be married in July of 2023. Ben and Calvin (who shared some thoughts on the podcast) talk about their active LDS family support (including being present for the engagement) and their des

My friend Jim Kasen (active LDS, mid 60’s, Same Sex Attraction) shares his story of his deep religious conversion/conviction; his anxiety; and his same sex attraction. Jim talks about how his Savior has been his constant rock in navigating the realities of his life including navigating difficult church experiences around his sexual orientation and why he stays a member of the Church. Jim has written a new book called “To Belong to Him” which I encourage everyone to read. In the book, Jim talks about the practical application of his relationship with the Savior as the foundation of his faith—and his way to move forward as a committed Latter-day Saint. The principles in Jim’s book apply to all of us. Jim’s book/story is a life of faith, courage, hope, and grace. I encourage everyone to listen to Jim’s podcast and read his book. Thank you, Jim, for all your work in our community as a clinical social worker, as the director of BYU University Relations, and as a kind and generous disciple of Christ.

My friend Skyler Sorensen joins us to talk about his new book called “Exclude Not Thyself: Thriving as a Covenant-Keeping, Gay Latter-day Saint”. In the podcast Skyler talks about why he wrote the book, principals to love LGBTQ Latter-day Saints in a faith-centered way, and some of his story including finding his wife Amanda and starting a family (a beautiful love story). Skyler also talks about his podcast called “Sit Down with Sky and Amanda” and his upcoming breakout session at NorthStar (June 15-18, 2023). I was deeply moved listening to Sky share his story. I encourage everyone to check out his new book and podcast. Thank you Sky for being on the podcast and your good work in our community. You are a good man. Glad to have you on the podcast. Podcast Links: Skyler’s book (preorder): Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXBFQ3VV Cedar Fort: https://www.cedarfort.com/products/exclude-not-thyself-how-to-thrive-as-a-covenant-keeping-gay-latter-day-saint Skyler’s Podcast: https://po

Noted Latter-day Saint authors McArthur Krishna and Bethany Brady Spalding (who have co-authored 7 LDS books) join us to talk about their latest book called “In the Image of our Heavenly Parents: A Couples Guide to Creating a More Divine Marriage.” Celebrating restoration theology of Heavenly Parents, this guidebook offers twelve principles for creating more divine marriages–filled with prophetic counsel, professional expertise, and practices for partnership. Focusing on one principle a month, couples can embark on a year-long journey to create a marriage in the image of our Heavenly Parents–an equal partnership that is collaborative, committed to growth, mutually-empowering, and full of joy! The book includes contributors from LDS therapists Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-File, Dr Julie Hanks, Dr. Ty Mansfield, and Geoff and Judy Steurer. I was deeply moved listening to McArthur and Bethany learning about their ground-breaking book based on our doctrine of equality in marriages. At the end of the podcast,

My friend Loren G. Dalton (former LDS Mission President) joins us to talk about his new book called “You ARE Receiving Revelation - Now Act on It”. In the podcast, Loren shares both the theology of this doctrine and practical application (including powerful stories) to make this real in our lives. Brother Dalton spoke on this subject at an Ensign College devotional (see link below). I encourage everyone to check out Brother Dalton’s book. When you do, you will find that I am one of the book endorsements at the front of his book. So many people struggle with either believing they aren't getting revelation or in learning how to better recognize it when it comes. I believe this book will help each of us better see, understand, and apply personal revelation in our lives, in addition to helping us learn how to recognize and avoid promptings from the adversary. If you have been struggling to find a great Mother's Day gift, this book could be your answer! Thank you, Loren, for your great work in our co